I am grappling with a way to summarize the concept of sin and its corollary, finger-pointing. As I understand his argument, sins are those actions by which we do genuine harm to the community in failing to hold ourselves accountable to ourselves and to each other. Actions which simply demonize other peoples or are destructive to the land are not sins but convenient excuses for dividing and conquering. Such actions are dangerous but disposable or reconfigurable according to one's perceived needs.
"Thou shalt not steal" is a proscription against a genuine sin, that of Avarice or "Father Greed," which is the motivating factor that allows a greedy person to blame others according to whim, thereby setting up a chain reaction of public blaming and identifying as "sins" things that are hindrances to or offenses against one's personal sensibilities.
I love the poem "Questionnaire" which it so nicely sums up the ways in which we excuse the actions we take when push comes to shove and convenience gets in the way of principles, or when as Stacy indicates, we seem to be left with no other option other than to go with the flow. Berry concludes by writing "much more is expected of us, and needed from us, than what may satisfy the wishes and perceived needs of individuals and of groups divided by racial, political, sexual, or other differences." (p. 171)
I had not read "Questionnaire" but it is now printed and sitting to the side waiting for me digest more thoroughly. What a gift these conversations are to be introduced to new other literary works.
Because I do not have a bible/religious foundation/belief system, it was easy for me to support the concept of sin into right/wrong as an individually held belief/practice. What happens around an individual persuades the individual to act in accordance, or at the least without a tightrope of remorse. Maybe right and wrong is a continuum and not a fixed action to be deciphered easily.
Sin is a loaded word, but I don't have a better word to explain root causes of the disorder we live in. Working with unhoused people I came face-to-face with the disorder in both individual lives and the social context in which they and I lived. People were quick to point to the "sins" of drug and alcohol abuse and sloth as the root causes of homelessness, but I never encountered anyone who wanted to discuss the social/community context, the "Social Sin" that bred such individual disorder. This situation caused me unease, so I entered seminary in my forties in part to explore the complicated mix of individual and social causes of poverty and homelessness. Thirty years later I am still grappling with such questions. One of my challenges is to accept responsibility my part in the disorder and change my way of thinking and acting, the way I live. (In religious terms that is called repentance.)
Dom Helder Camara, twentieth century Brazilian Catholic Bishop, is quoted as saying,
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”
By the way, Stacy and Dudley, I really appreciate being allowed to be part of the conversation you have started here. I have found it hard to find people who want to engage in a civil conversation about the issues raised by Berry. My wife has looked at parts of the discussion, and she said to me, "It looks like you have found your people."
Dan, so I read this the other day and tears streamed down my face - I am so honored to be a part of a community like this one. We are talking through screens, and I feel a connection. A willingness to share our individual life experiences, where we made turns and detours, the paths we follow now. I will not use the term "woke" because it is a term I despise and negates that there are a good many people who have been aware long before awareness entered a conversation at the local Starbucks.
Yes, we are all a part of the disorder though, I would argue, some incite the disorder more than others and that leaves the rest to reorganize. Social causes are a part of a larger conversation - often forgotten or blamed in current settings. Even the terminology has changed, almost like a distraction from dealing with the primary issues.
Our library is having a winter reading series on Blue Collar America, which should really be called "living in poverty and no safe shelter." It is an insightful series.
We are so glad you’re here, Dan. It is very hard indeed to do the work of questioning oneself in order to be part of a truly civil discourse in which everyone is listening as well as giving their own point of view. I would go so far as to say it’s ego-destroying, which is what makes it so difficult.
As an artist I’m generally surrounded by like-minded people, so I don’t have much practice in discussions where opinions flare into arguments. When they do I try my best to listen and understand where everybody’s coming from, and that I hope helps me widen my point of view. I have the greatest admiration for people like you who are in the trenches doing the hands-on work while I am over here writing.
I really like that you included, "truly civil discourse." It is difficult to look at oneself objectively. Maybe even harder to recognize something that requires a tilt of the head with a I can't believe I ...
Writing is important work - part of the reason we get to have these conversations. One of the themes I continue to reflect upon is how early on Berry speaks of equal. We each have a talent, right? Our purposes guide to that talent which is what we offer to community. The thing is, some never recognize their talent.
I must admit this poem and this chapter challenge me and my way of life. I am much to comfortable relying upon the sins of others to feed, clothe, house and fuel my lifestyle.
Regarding Berry's critique of Tom Friedman's hopeful defense of "green greed" to save us from ourselves, he writes (later in this book or in other writings) more at length about the merchants of technology creating and selling "fixes' for problems technology created. i.e. ways to repair the top soil that has been depleted by technological advances in factory farming.
Thank you so much for sharing this poem, I had not read it before and very much appreciate being introduced to other literary resources. It is not unexpected to be finding nuggets of Berry as he has tightened his themes and arguments over the years. This poem, written in 2009, reinforces my belief that he is not just tossing together a long book with little consideration.
Though I'm not reading this book (yet), I am enjoying reading your in-depth notes and interpretations. Thank you for sharing. I'm still thinking about what you said here:
"In these essays I often fall into an idea to oversimplify my arguments. I focus on using that which I am willing to always discuss, the environment. I believe that we are willing to waste and pollute because we know nothing else as an economic motive. That hands have grown too clean by avoiding soil and building a mutually beneficial relationship that comes with a nature-based relationship."
Jesse, I am thrilled you are following and might maybe one day pick up the tome (save it for next winter's reading list - does not feel like a summer read).
I believe wildness/environment is forefront in our minds in how we view the world, its importance, and because of that we both are trying to share its value with others who might not have the same experiences.
Thank you for reading and adding to the conversation.
I really, really like your writing Stacy and Dudley, and am now reading TNtbW for the first time so I can participate. But I’m finding it a hard slog, possibly because of the language; further I am not a religious person - words like sin make my skin crawl. I persist only because I’m here for your writing, and want to know more about how TNtbW is perceived in today’s society, by you and your community. So I’m here reading if you not always participating. The ‘homework’ and suggested questions/prompts are great, I can see their value. Thank you.
I am like you, Bee. Not religious. finding my worldly connection in a different way. Interestingly, though, I do not often begrudge those that have that foundation. In a way, unless they are being preachy or pushy, I am charmed (I don't believe this is the word I really want to use but ...) that they have something to latch onto, an idea that provides with peace and solitude. And maybe I am that way because I choose not to be judged that I might find my peace and solitude in a different way.
How is The Need to Be Whole perceived in today's society? Well, I can tell you that I have emails that are not encouraging. I also believe that there is a narrow population of people who are willing to read this book from beginning to end and to read it with enough attention to either find themselves being in support of or in disagreement of what Berry is trying to articulate. There is no right or wrong response - Berry, obviously, wants everyone to agree with him but that isn't going to happen. He even lists things we can do as a society to support small communities, but it will take real initiative for larger changes so that means we do what we can within our own communities.
Thank you, Bee. TNtbW is a tough read. My take on why that is, is that Berry repeats his positions in more than one way, getting at what for him is a more precise articulation of what he means, which for us readers can be daunting. I’m not religious either in any sectarian way, but I think I understand what he means when he is defining “sin” according to biblical proscriptions and then re-defining it as a word used more loosely in recent times. I wonder if “culpability” carries the same weight.
Thanks so much for reading along with us, and I am glad you find Stacy’s prompts and suggestions to be useful.
Me, writing out loud my wondering thoughts, I wonder if the text is daunting because we have been engaged so long with short reads - articles/essays/columns - that we have to remind ourselves how to read texts that require brain investment?
I have a very fraught relationship with the word sin and did not appreciate its use here by Berry. How could a reader shed the meanings they have been steeped in? I do not find it a useful catchall for "our destruction of precious things that we did not and cannot make" but I do think *that phrase is a wonderful guideline. Much more useful than a word loaded with eons of patriarchy's baggage. A chapter starting with Kavanagh and proceeding to ambiguous statements about abortion is not my chapter, frankly. His thoughts on work that show up again here, as he speaks of the sabbath, the abhorrence of work and worship of rest, felt buried, though I believe they are close to the central thesis of the book.
Part of what makes this communication conversation so valuable is coming to terms with the fact that each of us has a different perspective. Upbringing and life experiences complete and add value to our frame of reference. As such, embracing that others have different feelings and/or interpretations is what makes conversation worthwhile.
Berry notes: "Clarity is what we owe, in honesty and goodwill, to one another. Victory can only divide us again into a party of winners and a party of losers, thus preparing us for further confrontation and combat. But if we hope to have clarity we will have to submit to complexity ... Nothing so urgently asks us what we mean when we say we 'know' or we 'understand.'" (24)
I am grappling with a way to summarize the concept of sin and its corollary, finger-pointing. As I understand his argument, sins are those actions by which we do genuine harm to the community in failing to hold ourselves accountable to ourselves and to each other. Actions which simply demonize other peoples or are destructive to the land are not sins but convenient excuses for dividing and conquering. Such actions are dangerous but disposable or reconfigurable according to one's perceived needs.
"Thou shalt not steal" is a proscription against a genuine sin, that of Avarice or "Father Greed," which is the motivating factor that allows a greedy person to blame others according to whim, thereby setting up a chain reaction of public blaming and identifying as "sins" things that are hindrances to or offenses against one's personal sensibilities.
I love the poem "Questionnaire" which it so nicely sums up the ways in which we excuse the actions we take when push comes to shove and convenience gets in the way of principles, or when as Stacy indicates, we seem to be left with no other option other than to go with the flow. Berry concludes by writing "much more is expected of us, and needed from us, than what may satisfy the wishes and perceived needs of individuals and of groups divided by racial, political, sexual, or other differences." (p. 171)
I had not read "Questionnaire" but it is now printed and sitting to the side waiting for me digest more thoroughly. What a gift these conversations are to be introduced to new other literary works.
Because I do not have a bible/religious foundation/belief system, it was easy for me to support the concept of sin into right/wrong as an individually held belief/practice. What happens around an individual persuades the individual to act in accordance, or at the least without a tightrope of remorse. Maybe right and wrong is a continuum and not a fixed action to be deciphered easily.
Sin is a loaded word, but I don't have a better word to explain root causes of the disorder we live in. Working with unhoused people I came face-to-face with the disorder in both individual lives and the social context in which they and I lived. People were quick to point to the "sins" of drug and alcohol abuse and sloth as the root causes of homelessness, but I never encountered anyone who wanted to discuss the social/community context, the "Social Sin" that bred such individual disorder. This situation caused me unease, so I entered seminary in my forties in part to explore the complicated mix of individual and social causes of poverty and homelessness. Thirty years later I am still grappling with such questions. One of my challenges is to accept responsibility my part in the disorder and change my way of thinking and acting, the way I live. (In religious terms that is called repentance.)
Dom Helder Camara, twentieth century Brazilian Catholic Bishop, is quoted as saying,
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”
By the way, Stacy and Dudley, I really appreciate being allowed to be part of the conversation you have started here. I have found it hard to find people who want to engage in a civil conversation about the issues raised by Berry. My wife has looked at parts of the discussion, and she said to me, "It looks like you have found your people."
Dan, so I read this the other day and tears streamed down my face - I am so honored to be a part of a community like this one. We are talking through screens, and I feel a connection. A willingness to share our individual life experiences, where we made turns and detours, the paths we follow now. I will not use the term "woke" because it is a term I despise and negates that there are a good many people who have been aware long before awareness entered a conversation at the local Starbucks.
Yes, we are all a part of the disorder though, I would argue, some incite the disorder more than others and that leaves the rest to reorganize. Social causes are a part of a larger conversation - often forgotten or blamed in current settings. Even the terminology has changed, almost like a distraction from dealing with the primary issues.
Our library is having a winter reading series on Blue Collar America, which should really be called "living in poverty and no safe shelter." It is an insightful series.
Thank you for doing the hard work.
We are so glad you’re here, Dan. It is very hard indeed to do the work of questioning oneself in order to be part of a truly civil discourse in which everyone is listening as well as giving their own point of view. I would go so far as to say it’s ego-destroying, which is what makes it so difficult.
As an artist I’m generally surrounded by like-minded people, so I don’t have much practice in discussions where opinions flare into arguments. When they do I try my best to listen and understand where everybody’s coming from, and that I hope helps me widen my point of view. I have the greatest admiration for people like you who are in the trenches doing the hands-on work while I am over here writing.
I really like that you included, "truly civil discourse." It is difficult to look at oneself objectively. Maybe even harder to recognize something that requires a tilt of the head with a I can't believe I ...
Writing is important work - part of the reason we get to have these conversations. One of the themes I continue to reflect upon is how early on Berry speaks of equal. We each have a talent, right? Our purposes guide to that talent which is what we offer to community. The thing is, some never recognize their talent.
The best comment I can make on this chapter is to post Berry's poem "Questionnaire."
Questionnaire
Wendell Berry
1. How much poison are you willing
to eat for the success of the free
market and global trade? Please
name your preferred poisons.
2. For the sake of goodness, how much
evil are you willing to do?
Fill in the following blanks
with the names of your favorite
evils and acts of hatred.
3. What sacrifices are you prepared
to make for culture and civilization?
Please list the monuments, shrines,
and works of art you would
most willingly destroy.
4. In the name of patriotism and
the flag, how much of our beloved
land are you willing to desecrate?
List in the following spaces
the mountains, rivers, towns, farms
you could most readily do without.
5. State briefly the ideas, ideals, or hopes,
the energy sources, the kinds of security,
for which you would kill a child.
Name, please, the children whom
you would be willing to kill.
Wendell Berry. Leavings: Poems (Kindle Location 51). Kindle Edition.
I must admit this poem and this chapter challenge me and my way of life. I am much to comfortable relying upon the sins of others to feed, clothe, house and fuel my lifestyle.
Regarding Berry's critique of Tom Friedman's hopeful defense of "green greed" to save us from ourselves, he writes (later in this book or in other writings) more at length about the merchants of technology creating and selling "fixes' for problems technology created. i.e. ways to repair the top soil that has been depleted by technological advances in factory farming.
Thank you so much for sharing this poem, I had not read it before and very much appreciate being introduced to other literary resources. It is not unexpected to be finding nuggets of Berry as he has tightened his themes and arguments over the years. This poem, written in 2009, reinforces my belief that he is not just tossing together a long book with little consideration.
Stacy-
Though I'm not reading this book (yet), I am enjoying reading your in-depth notes and interpretations. Thank you for sharing. I'm still thinking about what you said here:
"In these essays I often fall into an idea to oversimplify my arguments. I focus on using that which I am willing to always discuss, the environment. I believe that we are willing to waste and pollute because we know nothing else as an economic motive. That hands have grown too clean by avoiding soil and building a mutually beneficial relationship that comes with a nature-based relationship."
Jesse, I am thrilled you are following and might maybe one day pick up the tome (save it for next winter's reading list - does not feel like a summer read).
I believe wildness/environment is forefront in our minds in how we view the world, its importance, and because of that we both are trying to share its value with others who might not have the same experiences.
Thank you for reading and adding to the conversation.
I agree, Stacy.
I really, really like your writing Stacy and Dudley, and am now reading TNtbW for the first time so I can participate. But I’m finding it a hard slog, possibly because of the language; further I am not a religious person - words like sin make my skin crawl. I persist only because I’m here for your writing, and want to know more about how TNtbW is perceived in today’s society, by you and your community. So I’m here reading if you not always participating. The ‘homework’ and suggested questions/prompts are great, I can see their value. Thank you.
I am like you, Bee. Not religious. finding my worldly connection in a different way. Interestingly, though, I do not often begrudge those that have that foundation. In a way, unless they are being preachy or pushy, I am charmed (I don't believe this is the word I really want to use but ...) that they have something to latch onto, an idea that provides with peace and solitude. And maybe I am that way because I choose not to be judged that I might find my peace and solitude in a different way.
How is The Need to Be Whole perceived in today's society? Well, I can tell you that I have emails that are not encouraging. I also believe that there is a narrow population of people who are willing to read this book from beginning to end and to read it with enough attention to either find themselves being in support of or in disagreement of what Berry is trying to articulate. There is no right or wrong response - Berry, obviously, wants everyone to agree with him but that isn't going to happen. He even lists things we can do as a society to support small communities, but it will take real initiative for larger changes so that means we do what we can within our own communities.
I am so very glad you are here.
Thanks Stacy, this is helpful; and reassuring.
Thank you, Bee. TNtbW is a tough read. My take on why that is, is that Berry repeats his positions in more than one way, getting at what for him is a more precise articulation of what he means, which for us readers can be daunting. I’m not religious either in any sectarian way, but I think I understand what he means when he is defining “sin” according to biblical proscriptions and then re-defining it as a word used more loosely in recent times. I wonder if “culpability” carries the same weight.
Thanks so much for reading along with us, and I am glad you find Stacy’s prompts and suggestions to be useful.
I like that term - culpability.
Me, writing out loud my wondering thoughts, I wonder if the text is daunting because we have been engaged so long with short reads - articles/essays/columns - that we have to remind ourselves how to read texts that require brain investment?
Thanks Dudley.
Yes,the themes in The Need to Be Whole course through his fiction, non fiction, and poetry.
What it means to have a lifetime to come to a viewpoint.
I have a very fraught relationship with the word sin and did not appreciate its use here by Berry. How could a reader shed the meanings they have been steeped in? I do not find it a useful catchall for "our destruction of precious things that we did not and cannot make" but I do think *that phrase is a wonderful guideline. Much more useful than a word loaded with eons of patriarchy's baggage. A chapter starting with Kavanagh and proceeding to ambiguous statements about abortion is not my chapter, frankly. His thoughts on work that show up again here, as he speaks of the sabbath, the abhorrence of work and worship of rest, felt buried, though I believe they are close to the central thesis of the book.
Dan, that poem is the perfect reply.
Part of what makes this communication conversation so valuable is coming to terms with the fact that each of us has a different perspective. Upbringing and life experiences complete and add value to our frame of reference. As such, embracing that others have different feelings and/or interpretations is what makes conversation worthwhile.
Berry notes: "Clarity is what we owe, in honesty and goodwill, to one another. Victory can only divide us again into a party of winners and a party of losers, thus preparing us for further confrontation and combat. But if we hope to have clarity we will have to submit to complexity ... Nothing so urgently asks us what we mean when we say we 'know' or we 'understand.'" (24)