So many familiar stories here that I grew up with, particularly the ones relating to John Hunt Morgan and Robert E. Lee, and then there are the examples from Homer, Shakespeare, Milton and Merton. Forgiveness and Love are every bit as powerful, even more so, than war, hate and fear. It is in this chapter as Stacy says, that Berry "begins to more strongly steer the reader towards the idea of whole." And toward love of place - on page 235, where he writes "Love for that place shows us the work that it asks us to do in order to live in it while seeing to its need, and ours, to be whole."
When I first read this chapter three years ago, I had no idea that we as a country would be facing what we face now, or that we will need to forgive, not the criminal perpetrators, but the ordinary people with whom we have disagreed for so long. There is no going forward if we cannot understand both sides of our story, and begin to work together to heal the land and ourselves.
Dudley, I really like that quote. It was one I had marked with "use" in the margins. Berry says quite clearly, "... emotions use up a lot of energy and so are weakening." (234) And then, "They also are powerfully distracting." I wonder if my fatigue is the balance of reading Berry or the inability to be impassive with now. How can we avoid doing damage to ourselves in an effort to make a difference? Forgiveness is hard, important, but hard. Personally, I do understand though, that as long as I ruminate on what is negatively hijacking my positive effort then I can't focus on making a positive difference.
Thank you for being here, for a being a part of this conversation.
Just wanted to pop in an essay that Hadden Turner's from Over the Field, writes about the cost of reading Wendell Berry. I like the entire paragraph that this sentence is found in.
... Mr. Berry has devoted his life to writing and to farming (the visual and earthy representation of his words) — to make us think.
Stacy, I sat down this morning to respond to your comment up top about the fatigue that sets in when there is so much negative information to process, and the corollary, negativity building up inside us. Instead, I took a dive into Hadden Turner's Substack, and found that his reading of Wendell Berry as well as his other writings, are incredibly enlightening, if not always easy reads.
The world is pitching us curve balls. Choosing which ones to reach for, where to take action, when so much needs acting upon, does lead to overwhelm. Knowing how to avoid doing damage to ourselves, for me comes down to being careful not to overindulge in negative news. Just as I'm writing these words, the old song pops into my head, "You got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, don't mess with Mr. In-Between." Is that a formula that works? I dunno. Certainly as a news diet, the junk food of Mr. In-Between snacks is something we don't need, leaving us more energy to accentuate the positive and do what we do to eliminate the negative, whether that means stepping aside for a moment or longer, or taking action to make our voices heard.
Thanks, Dudley. We need endless reminders right now to find a separation, why does it feel so hard? It was never my intention with these essays to write so much about current times, I thought I would be able to stick with the book - analysis of Berry's words - and I find it frustrating in the inability to separate. Maybe I feel a bit of extra freedom because Berry makes his own comments (I've always felt like these were bad/rushed/forced additions as the book was in the final editing stages).
Action - separate and continue our actionable ways through our art and conversations.
Glad you found something to hold onto with Hadden. It is an older post but still relevant.
Are we beyond forgiveness? Perhaps we are. Forgiveness requires much from all who become involved in a forgiveness project. Forgiveness requires truthfulness, vulnerability, humility, and a willingness to both speak and listen. (Lessons learned from South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission.) No one wants to look weak and vulnerable. Yet, we are flesh and blood, and we all have our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. We all sin against one another. (I am Sorry for using that loaded word, but my limited vocabulary offers me no better word.)
Forgiveness is not an act of compromise where each party gives a little to settle a dispute. Nor is it a process by which one party wins and the other loses. A forgiveness project is a search for consensus by both perpetrator and victim. If successful it ends in a confession of guilt and request for forgiveness by the perpetrator, and an offer of forgiveness and pardon by the victim. In this hyper-competitive culture we live in, a culture driven by the concept of winners and losers, this is a difficult concept for many people to grasp. Both confessions of hurt - especially when accompanied by tears of pain - and the willingness to condescend and admit guilt can make a person look weak and vulnerable. Again, few people see those as admirable traits. Yet that is required by all parties involved in our quest for wholeness.
It seems to me that the USA needs a reset button. Slavery was embedded in the founding documents of our nation, into our national psyche, and it is a gift that keeps on giving. The Civil War was fought primarily over slavery, As a result of the war legal slavery was abolished. But in the hearts and minds of generations of Americans the repercussions of enslavement of Africans lingers on. Perhaps if the post war years had been handled differently we may have managed to grow beyond the conflict. Of course we will never know.
As a nation we are unable to forget, much less to forgive. Thinking back on our earlier conversation about context, perhaps the problem is we remember differently and some of us remember longer. Regarding the conflict in many communities to remove Confederate statues from public display, Berry writes on page 180, “This is one more confrontation, more or less a combat, the winners will forget, again to be surprised, that losers remember.” Perhaps the events of the last ten years have been fueled, at least in part, by the memory of the “loss” of elections in 2008 and 2012.
So, how do we move forward after 160 years of remembering differently? Memories fad but wounds linger. The sins of the father may be passed down for generations, but with no responsibility from those who carry those sins forward. Yet, the scars and pain of victims, past and present, remain. Personal experience in my community has shown me that attempting to start a conversation among white people around race and racism and its continuing effect on our life together is virtually impossible. So how does the conversation start? Where do we go from here?
Yes Stacy, I have found my people here in this conversation. Once again I offer my gratitude to you and Dudley for starting it. Still I yearn for meaningful, fruit bearing conversations with people here locally, the people with whom I share common history, heritage and ancestry.
I believe there is a lot packed into this sentence which is not nearly as simple or straightforward as it might seem: "This is one more confrontation, more or less a combat, the winners will forget, again to be surprised, that losers remember.” We expend a lot of energy trying to remember or forget. Maybe that is why this chapter, which is not a chapter I wanted to exact a tremendous amount of bandwidth towards, sticks with me from the sheer difference in definition.
Forgiveness: release from the guilt or penalty of an offense (i.e. amnesty) which is a bit different from forgive: to cease to have feelings of anger or bitterness towards (i.e. pardon).
Maybe I do not prefer the term forgiveness. There simply exist actions/moments/events I want to be something another does not forget. But that is a double-edged sword, right. As such, I am willing to practice forgive which feels more personal, something more that I can control. In essence, there are a lot of things I seek to achieve/find/experience in life and if I spent too much time unwilling to forgive then I lose sight of what else is important, allowing that something to always be present and involved in my mental gymnastics. I guess, I just don't want the baggage. I can tend to forgive but that is not (always) an extension of forgiveness.
In relation to your last paragraph, maybe this is where we learn to better prepare our statements and conversation so that they might be more accepted with those of a more common history, heritage and ancestry?
Stacy, your last paragraph has given me somethings to consider regarding my assumptions about the people I think I know best. Perhaps some of my assumptions hinder a more open dialogue with them.
"Accepted" might have been a poor choice of words in my response but I guess that is what we continue to try - to persuade something different.
There was a period of time when I limited my response to, "Why?" or, "Tell me more." An effort to learn more but that got tiresome fast - again, my own intention getting in the way.
Did I say I wasn't touching IV Sin with a ten foot pole? V Forgiveness was a close second. Sarah, it is so very validating to see the quote you included from Lori Gottlieb on the subject. Some things are not forgivable. I read the rest of that column and she recommends instead, cultivating compassion for the hurt individual behind the behavior. And this is good too, in the example she used of compassion toward a parent (say, now that we're an adult). But there are also some examples, sort of at the other extreme from your well-placed Pecos example of long endured but long-ago wrongs, where the behavior is present and ongoing. That "forced forgiveness" Gottlieb talks about, so often contributes to domestic violence victims (it's me, hi, I'm talking about women again) not leaving a toxic, dangerous situation. Did for me anyway. So my relationship with forgiveness (from an exvangelical perspective) is... a tepid one.
Most people don't do things to me that "require" forgiveness! And the one(s) who did/does, does not deserve it. And the act of forgiving wouldn't be "for me," it would be for someone who still thinks I'm shit. Not interested. Also not interested in "two-way-street" commentary/oversimplification of the power dynamics in domestic situations, I have used the analogy that I threw stones, he went nuclear. So I don't feel I need to be forgiven for my stones. (Other than by myself, but what I need is more self-compassion than forgiveness.)
Okay so therapy session concluded, I think Berry is coming at this to try to have us be able to be realistic about history (not erase it - mixed feeling about his statue stance I'll admit, but owning history is a good thing) and to be able to be neighbors who can let bygones be bygones. He harps on the bygones a lot. I don’t think they’re gone? I cannot and will not forgive slavery? But that doesn’t mean I can’t be warm toward and connect with my neighbor whose family history differs from mine. And I’m here for neighbor connections and community building.
Stacy, I’m right there with you about the sentiment requiring a person to live somewhere for generations. I’m always differing from Wendell about this. He seems to think it’s a superior way to be, to have stayed in one place. I moved to a new place, and looked at it with my heart open and said “I will put down roots here and love this place with my whole heart” and have done so. Not for generations, but for sixteen years now. And it’s possible I’ll need to leave it one day, but while I am here, I will be wholly here, and fully embrace the community who has come to embrace me. (Hint: my first move was to become very involved at the farmer’s market!)
I’m pretty sure I was just talking back to Wendell while I listened to this chapter, but I didn’t mark any passages. Whatever that says about me. Was I hurrying to get past it? Perhaps. But I’m thankful for the continued pursuit of understanding you’re cultivating here. Thank you both for your essays this week.
I have a confession. Unless it is a book I choose simply to read in a brain-dead sort of way, which is essential to space between the heady reads, I write sentences in a notebook for later reference. What I have learned over the years is that I am seeking beautiful phrases, sentences, or even paragraphs that conform to my individual expectation or preference. Examples of writing that nudges me to become a better writer. Unintentionally (and it is almost with chagrin that I realized) that what I wanted to read were words that support my worldview. Part of my worldview is kindness, putting down roots, being a part of and building up community, not sitting on the sidelines waiting/hoping for bad to become good. One day I will leave, not only this place but this life and all I want to be able to reflect upon as that at the end of any given day I simply did the best I could do, I supported others and can be proud of my own achievements. That means to embrace a community with all its bumps and flaws but that, for me, also means to forgive what no longer deserves status in my being. Does not mean to forget.
I quickly read the article Sarah references and as an example of what I mention above, here is my takeaway: "... you can separate what was done to you from the hurt person behind it ..." I guess I choose to separate.
Always, thank you for being a part of this conversation.
So many familiar stories here that I grew up with, particularly the ones relating to John Hunt Morgan and Robert E. Lee, and then there are the examples from Homer, Shakespeare, Milton and Merton. Forgiveness and Love are every bit as powerful, even more so, than war, hate and fear. It is in this chapter as Stacy says, that Berry "begins to more strongly steer the reader towards the idea of whole." And toward love of place - on page 235, where he writes "Love for that place shows us the work that it asks us to do in order to live in it while seeing to its need, and ours, to be whole."
When I first read this chapter three years ago, I had no idea that we as a country would be facing what we face now, or that we will need to forgive, not the criminal perpetrators, but the ordinary people with whom we have disagreed for so long. There is no going forward if we cannot understand both sides of our story, and begin to work together to heal the land and ourselves.
Dudley, I really like that quote. It was one I had marked with "use" in the margins. Berry says quite clearly, "... emotions use up a lot of energy and so are weakening." (234) And then, "They also are powerfully distracting." I wonder if my fatigue is the balance of reading Berry or the inability to be impassive with now. How can we avoid doing damage to ourselves in an effort to make a difference? Forgiveness is hard, important, but hard. Personally, I do understand though, that as long as I ruminate on what is negatively hijacking my positive effort then I can't focus on making a positive difference.
Thank you for being here, for a being a part of this conversation.
Just wanted to pop in an essay that Hadden Turner's from Over the Field, writes about the cost of reading Wendell Berry. I like the entire paragraph that this sentence is found in.
... Mr. Berry has devoted his life to writing and to farming (the visual and earthy representation of his words) — to make us think.
https://substack.com/@overthefield/p-143597158
Stacy, I sat down this morning to respond to your comment up top about the fatigue that sets in when there is so much negative information to process, and the corollary, negativity building up inside us. Instead, I took a dive into Hadden Turner's Substack, and found that his reading of Wendell Berry as well as his other writings, are incredibly enlightening, if not always easy reads.
The world is pitching us curve balls. Choosing which ones to reach for, where to take action, when so much needs acting upon, does lead to overwhelm. Knowing how to avoid doing damage to ourselves, for me comes down to being careful not to overindulge in negative news. Just as I'm writing these words, the old song pops into my head, "You got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, don't mess with Mr. In-Between." Is that a formula that works? I dunno. Certainly as a news diet, the junk food of Mr. In-Between snacks is something we don't need, leaving us more energy to accentuate the positive and do what we do to eliminate the negative, whether that means stepping aside for a moment or longer, or taking action to make our voices heard.
Thanks, Dudley. We need endless reminders right now to find a separation, why does it feel so hard? It was never my intention with these essays to write so much about current times, I thought I would be able to stick with the book - analysis of Berry's words - and I find it frustrating in the inability to separate. Maybe I feel a bit of extra freedom because Berry makes his own comments (I've always felt like these were bad/rushed/forced additions as the book was in the final editing stages).
Action - separate and continue our actionable ways through our art and conversations.
Glad you found something to hold onto with Hadden. It is an older post but still relevant.
Are we beyond forgiveness? Perhaps we are. Forgiveness requires much from all who become involved in a forgiveness project. Forgiveness requires truthfulness, vulnerability, humility, and a willingness to both speak and listen. (Lessons learned from South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission.) No one wants to look weak and vulnerable. Yet, we are flesh and blood, and we all have our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. We all sin against one another. (I am Sorry for using that loaded word, but my limited vocabulary offers me no better word.)
Forgiveness is not an act of compromise where each party gives a little to settle a dispute. Nor is it a process by which one party wins and the other loses. A forgiveness project is a search for consensus by both perpetrator and victim. If successful it ends in a confession of guilt and request for forgiveness by the perpetrator, and an offer of forgiveness and pardon by the victim. In this hyper-competitive culture we live in, a culture driven by the concept of winners and losers, this is a difficult concept for many people to grasp. Both confessions of hurt - especially when accompanied by tears of pain - and the willingness to condescend and admit guilt can make a person look weak and vulnerable. Again, few people see those as admirable traits. Yet that is required by all parties involved in our quest for wholeness.
It seems to me that the USA needs a reset button. Slavery was embedded in the founding documents of our nation, into our national psyche, and it is a gift that keeps on giving. The Civil War was fought primarily over slavery, As a result of the war legal slavery was abolished. But in the hearts and minds of generations of Americans the repercussions of enslavement of Africans lingers on. Perhaps if the post war years had been handled differently we may have managed to grow beyond the conflict. Of course we will never know.
As a nation we are unable to forget, much less to forgive. Thinking back on our earlier conversation about context, perhaps the problem is we remember differently and some of us remember longer. Regarding the conflict in many communities to remove Confederate statues from public display, Berry writes on page 180, “This is one more confrontation, more or less a combat, the winners will forget, again to be surprised, that losers remember.” Perhaps the events of the last ten years have been fueled, at least in part, by the memory of the “loss” of elections in 2008 and 2012.
So, how do we move forward after 160 years of remembering differently? Memories fad but wounds linger. The sins of the father may be passed down for generations, but with no responsibility from those who carry those sins forward. Yet, the scars and pain of victims, past and present, remain. Personal experience in my community has shown me that attempting to start a conversation among white people around race and racism and its continuing effect on our life together is virtually impossible. So how does the conversation start? Where do we go from here?
Yes Stacy, I have found my people here in this conversation. Once again I offer my gratitude to you and Dudley for starting it. Still I yearn for meaningful, fruit bearing conversations with people here locally, the people with whom I share common history, heritage and ancestry.
I believe there is a lot packed into this sentence which is not nearly as simple or straightforward as it might seem: "This is one more confrontation, more or less a combat, the winners will forget, again to be surprised, that losers remember.” We expend a lot of energy trying to remember or forget. Maybe that is why this chapter, which is not a chapter I wanted to exact a tremendous amount of bandwidth towards, sticks with me from the sheer difference in definition.
Forgiveness: release from the guilt or penalty of an offense (i.e. amnesty) which is a bit different from forgive: to cease to have feelings of anger or bitterness towards (i.e. pardon).
Maybe I do not prefer the term forgiveness. There simply exist actions/moments/events I want to be something another does not forget. But that is a double-edged sword, right. As such, I am willing to practice forgive which feels more personal, something more that I can control. In essence, there are a lot of things I seek to achieve/find/experience in life and if I spent too much time unwilling to forgive then I lose sight of what else is important, allowing that something to always be present and involved in my mental gymnastics. I guess, I just don't want the baggage. I can tend to forgive but that is not (always) an extension of forgiveness.
In relation to your last paragraph, maybe this is where we learn to better prepare our statements and conversation so that they might be more accepted with those of a more common history, heritage and ancestry?
Stacy, your last paragraph has given me somethings to consider regarding my assumptions about the people I think I know best. Perhaps some of my assumptions hinder a more open dialogue with them.
"Accepted" might have been a poor choice of words in my response but I guess that is what we continue to try - to persuade something different.
There was a period of time when I limited my response to, "Why?" or, "Tell me more." An effort to learn more but that got tiresome fast - again, my own intention getting in the way.
Did I say I wasn't touching IV Sin with a ten foot pole? V Forgiveness was a close second. Sarah, it is so very validating to see the quote you included from Lori Gottlieb on the subject. Some things are not forgivable. I read the rest of that column and she recommends instead, cultivating compassion for the hurt individual behind the behavior. And this is good too, in the example she used of compassion toward a parent (say, now that we're an adult). But there are also some examples, sort of at the other extreme from your well-placed Pecos example of long endured but long-ago wrongs, where the behavior is present and ongoing. That "forced forgiveness" Gottlieb talks about, so often contributes to domestic violence victims (it's me, hi, I'm talking about women again) not leaving a toxic, dangerous situation. Did for me anyway. So my relationship with forgiveness (from an exvangelical perspective) is... a tepid one.
Most people don't do things to me that "require" forgiveness! And the one(s) who did/does, does not deserve it. And the act of forgiving wouldn't be "for me," it would be for someone who still thinks I'm shit. Not interested. Also not interested in "two-way-street" commentary/oversimplification of the power dynamics in domestic situations, I have used the analogy that I threw stones, he went nuclear. So I don't feel I need to be forgiven for my stones. (Other than by myself, but what I need is more self-compassion than forgiveness.)
Okay so therapy session concluded, I think Berry is coming at this to try to have us be able to be realistic about history (not erase it - mixed feeling about his statue stance I'll admit, but owning history is a good thing) and to be able to be neighbors who can let bygones be bygones. He harps on the bygones a lot. I don’t think they’re gone? I cannot and will not forgive slavery? But that doesn’t mean I can’t be warm toward and connect with my neighbor whose family history differs from mine. And I’m here for neighbor connections and community building.
Stacy, I’m right there with you about the sentiment requiring a person to live somewhere for generations. I’m always differing from Wendell about this. He seems to think it’s a superior way to be, to have stayed in one place. I moved to a new place, and looked at it with my heart open and said “I will put down roots here and love this place with my whole heart” and have done so. Not for generations, but for sixteen years now. And it’s possible I’ll need to leave it one day, but while I am here, I will be wholly here, and fully embrace the community who has come to embrace me. (Hint: my first move was to become very involved at the farmer’s market!)
I’m pretty sure I was just talking back to Wendell while I listened to this chapter, but I didn’t mark any passages. Whatever that says about me. Was I hurrying to get past it? Perhaps. But I’m thankful for the continued pursuit of understanding you’re cultivating here. Thank you both for your essays this week.
I have a confession. Unless it is a book I choose simply to read in a brain-dead sort of way, which is essential to space between the heady reads, I write sentences in a notebook for later reference. What I have learned over the years is that I am seeking beautiful phrases, sentences, or even paragraphs that conform to my individual expectation or preference. Examples of writing that nudges me to become a better writer. Unintentionally (and it is almost with chagrin that I realized) that what I wanted to read were words that support my worldview. Part of my worldview is kindness, putting down roots, being a part of and building up community, not sitting on the sidelines waiting/hoping for bad to become good. One day I will leave, not only this place but this life and all I want to be able to reflect upon as that at the end of any given day I simply did the best I could do, I supported others and can be proud of my own achievements. That means to embrace a community with all its bumps and flaws but that, for me, also means to forgive what no longer deserves status in my being. Does not mean to forget.
I quickly read the article Sarah references and as an example of what I mention above, here is my takeaway: "... you can separate what was done to you from the hurt person behind it ..." I guess I choose to separate.
Always, thank you for being a part of this conversation.